**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Mar 19 22:56:30 2002
Mar 19 22:56:30 --> You are now talking on #ampu
Mar 19 22:56:30 --- Topic for #ampu is Coding a better government. Join us...
Mar 19 22:56:30 --- Topic for #ampu set by ChanServ at Fri Mar 8 22:54:13
Mar 19 22:56:30 -ChanServ- [#ampu] Welcome to AMPU. See http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/ampu/ for details.

Mar 19 22:56:39 <jel> hi guys :)
Mar 19 22:56:46 <speek> hello
Mar 19 22:57:08 <jel> how's things?
Mar 19 22:57:25 <speek> busy :-)
Mar 19 22:57:42 <speek> how bout you?
Mar 19 22:58:08 <jel> me too. I actually have to apologise, for not getting a chance to do the stuff I talked about.
Mar 19 22:58:38 <speek> don't worry about it
Mar 19 22:58:40 <jel> I did manage to find some time to work on it, but it was mostly frustrated by crap software, etc..
Mar 19 22:59:00 <speek> Argo?
Mar 19 22:59:01 <jel> the stable version of ArgoUML, I've decided, sucks. =)
Mar 19 22:59:03 <jel> yup.
Mar 19 22:59:12 <speek> lol
Mar 19 22:59:23 <speek> i didn't like it when i tried it, but that was a while ago
Mar 19 22:59:31 <jel> I wanted to use the new version, but they warned that it's save file format might change.
Mar 19 23:00:05 <speek> isn't there a standardized UML -> XML?
Mar 19 23:00:12 <jel> I found out yesterday, though, luckily enough, that they've removed that warning. So I'm using that not. ArgoUML 0.9.7, that is.
Mar 19 23:00:19 <jel> XMI.
Mar 19 23:00:36 <speek> do they use it?
Mar 19 23:00:54 <jel> Argo uses it, but 0.9.7 can't load 0.8.x XMI files, so I guess XMI's not what it's cracked up to be =)
Mar 19 23:01:19 <speek> ah,they have extensions probably - which is good, IMO
Mar 19 23:01:42 <jel> anyway.. I was getting started on it again tonight, and then an auction I'd been watching hotted up, so that only concluded about 20 mins ago.
Mar 19 23:02:05 <speek> :-)
Mar 19 23:02:18 <speek> so, it's midnight over there?
Mar 19 23:02:22 <jel> The one bit of good news, is that I'm now the owner of an icebook (the non-toyish imacs =)
Mar 19 23:02:30 <jel> well, 11pm, yup.
Mar 19 23:03:11 <jel> how much do ibooks set you back stateside?
Mar 19 23:03:25 <speek> i avoid macs, so I don't know
Mar 19 23:03:28 <jel> =)
Mar 19 23:03:48 <jel> hey, linux runs on a ppc just as well as on x86, and they look nice =)
Mar 19 23:04:17 <speek> it's already frustrating enough that i can't live with just Linux, or just Windows
Mar 19 23:04:22 <jel> plus, it was only (the equivalent of) $360 :)
Mar 19 23:04:24 <speek> i don't want another OS addiction
Mar 19 23:04:33 <speek> not bad
Mar 19 23:04:53 <jel> you mean dual-booting?
Mar 19 23:05:01 <speek> ya, or dual-computering
Mar 19 23:05:04 <speek> :-)
Mar 19 23:05:23 <speek> lately, it's compatibility with work that forces me to keep windows around
Mar 19 23:05:32 <speek> the games are nice too, but i could live without them
Mar 19 23:05:33 <jel> my problem is linux for 99.9% of stuff, and n64 for zelda =)
Mar 19 23:05:55 <speek> :-) glad i have no idea what zelda is
Mar 19 23:06:16 <speek> so, adiffer won't be here tonight, right?
Mar 19 23:06:24 <jel> ohh... Zelda64.. greatest game of all time, bar one.. Zelda64 2 =)
Mar 19 23:06:32 <speek> what sort of game is it?
Mar 19 23:06:36 <jel> nope, off dodging booster rockets =)
Mar 19 23:07:03 <jel> 1 sec..
Mar 19 23:09:05 <jel> it's hard to describe, since nothing else really compares, but... it's a sort of first person RPG (well, third person, the camera follows you), with lots of intricate story lines, really fun characters, and amazing addictiveness. It's really an "experience", in the highest sense of the word =)
Mar 19 23:09:45 <jel> I like it so much, I guess, because I always wanted to write a really good RPG =)
Mar 19 23:09:50 <speek> you play on the net with other people?\
Mar 19 23:10:08 <speek> so, why are you working on ampu? ;-)
Mar 19 23:10:45 <jel> no, it's a little before that time. Actually, Zelda64 is really about #7 in the Zelda series =)
Mar 19 23:10:51 <speek> (i take it steve won't be joining us?)
Mar 19 23:10:57 <jel> nope, guess not.
Mar 19 23:11:33 <speek> well, for starters, i've been thinking that we got a little into implementation details last time we talked here
Mar 19 23:11:41 <jel> Well, I just think AMPU's important, and implementable. My ideas for an RPG are more like building a functional world, not easily done =)
Mar 19 23:12:00 <jel> really? in what way?
Mar 19 23:12:02 <speek> i'm just teasing ya :-)
Mar 19 23:12:31 <speek> well, we seemed overly worried about exactly how users would be connected with groups, connected with forums, connected with initiatives, etc
Mar 19 23:12:55 <speek> it was almost as though we were trying to imagine the database structure that would hold that information
Mar 19 23:13:19 <speek> whereas, if we concentrated strictly on the user experience, we might get further
Mar 19 23:13:28 <jel> Actually, you pointed out some big flaws last time. A lot of the stuff I'm working on right now (or *should be* working on :) is about making things follow a simpler, more OO design, that your comments on juries belonging to initiatives etc inspired.
Mar 19 23:14:11 <speek> that's an example - this notion of "belonging" - it implies a database design decision
Mar 19 23:14:12 <jel> yup, I guess we did get into it at the wrong stage, but it was useful, no harm done.
Mar 19 23:14:39 <speek> i'm not saying it was bad
Mar 19 23:14:54 <speek> we're developers, i doubt we can avoid thinking about implementation and design
Mar 19 23:15:10 <jel> not bad.. amazon's automated systems tell me I won the auction 50 minutes later. There's real-time for ya =)
Mar 19 23:15:16 <speek> but it might help to try and keep use cases strictly about user experience
Mar 19 23:15:23 <speek> :-)
Mar 19 23:16:07 <jel> Yup, that's the big redesign thing I'm doing right now.. I'm learning as I go here, and I really got off track before. Things are much cleaner now, but there isn't much to show so far :(
Mar 19 23:16:25 <speek> well, there's no hurry
Mar 19 23:17:08 <speek> another thought i had - we could release a "game" version of ampu - as an implementation of on-line "nomic" :-)
Mar 19 23:17:24 <jel> nomic?
Mar 19 23:17:46 <speek> a game described by Hofstadter in Goedel, Escher, Bach
Mar 19 23:18:02 <jel> sounds interesting, go on.. =)
Mar 19 23:18:16 <speek> it's simply about rules, and voiting on rules - the rules affect how rules get changed mostly
Mar 19 23:18:29 <speek> entirely self-referential game
Mar 19 23:18:39 <jel> meta-gaming, love it =)
Mar 19 23:18:56 <speek> i'm unclear how a winner is determined, except that the rules which govern it are changeable too, by voting....
Mar 19 23:19:14 <speek> yeah, if you google for "nomic", you'll find a lot
Mar 19 23:19:45 <speek> anyway, it struck me that ampu would make an excellent platform for the game
Mar 19 23:20:15 <jel> so instead of inviting people to vote for the best system of feeding themselves, we can let them vote on the best rules of physics to apply to the virtual dice which decides if they get food? ;)
Mar 19 23:20:35 <speek> sure
Mar 19 23:21:07 <jel> heh... it would certainly encourage people to listen up in physics class =)
Mar 19 23:21:11 <speek> i'm a gaming person, so that's where my mind tends to wander
Mar 19 23:21:21 <democritus2> yo
Mar 19 23:21:25 <speek> hey steve
Mar 19 23:21:31 <jel> hey demo =)
Mar 19 23:21:32 <democritus2> just got in- 14hour day
Mar 19 23:21:40 <speek> fun fun
Mar 19 23:21:45 <democritus2> yeah
Mar 19 23:22:00 <jel> jeez.. call-out ?
Mar 19 23:22:17 <democritus2> no standard day :)
Mar 19 23:23:09 <jel> wow.. I just got an email telling me I'm the highest bidder %-|
Mar 19 23:23:11 <democritus2> a game version?
Mar 19 23:23:19 <democritus2> highest bidder on what?
Mar 19 23:23:24 <speek> have you heard of "nomic"?
Mar 19 23:23:36 <democritus2> nope
Mar 19 23:23:45 <jel> ahh., steve.. just got an icebook (the nice ibooks) for $360 =)
Mar 19 23:24:03 <speek> it's just a silly idea
Mar 19 23:24:15 <speek> for fun :-)
Mar 19 23:24:23 <democritus2> cool
Mar 19 23:24:29 <democritus2> hehe
Mar 19 23:24:34 <speek> (not referring to the icebook...well, maybe a little ;-)
Mar 19 23:24:36 <jel> heh.. silly ideas lead to good ones, though.. they're more than welcome.
Mar 19 23:24:46 <jel> speek: =)
Mar 19 23:25:12 <speek> so, are you going to continue with Argo, or switch?
Mar 19 23:25:23 <democritus2> uh-oh m$ has been caught again :)
Mar 19 23:25:31 <speek> caught how?
Mar 19 23:25:35 <democritus2> just reading about the Dell thing
Mar 19 23:25:37 <jel> well, there aren't a lot of options left, and Argo does have some advantages.
Mar 19 23:25:45 <democritus2> them forcing Dell to drop Linux promotion
Mar 19 23:25:59 <speek> go M$!!
Mar 19 23:26:41 <speek> which reminds me, i recently had an idea on how to pry the home user market away from microsoft
Mar 19 23:26:43 <jel> democritus2: is that confirmed? I read a comment saying that Dell most likely didn't make money at linux, and used M$ as an excuse. That was probably posted by bill, though =)
Mar 19 23:26:51 <speek> just thought i'd through that out there.....:-)
Mar 19 23:27:03 <jel> speek: go ahead =)
Mar 19 23:27:29 <democritus2> jel- there was a document found
Mar 19 23:27:46 <jel> does it involve a certain corporate tycoon, and a warning shot to the back of a head? ;)
Mar 19 23:28:06 <speek> lol, i just don't understand why someone doesn't develop a linux-based tivo/dvd-player/mpg-player/file-sharing/web-surfing/email/game-playing appliance
Mar 19 23:28:10 <jel> democritus2: ahh! On /. ?
Mar 19 23:28:24 <democritus2> "'I'm thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with anti-Linux. ... they should do a delicate dance,' Kempin wrote to Ballmer, in what is sure to be a memorable addition to the phrases ('knife the baby', 'cut off the air supply') with which Microsoft enriched the English language in the first trial. Unlike those two, this is not contested.
Mar 19 23:28:44 <democritus2> states attorneys turned this memo in today
Mar 19 23:29:16 <jel> M$ actually used the term "knife the baby" ? ;)
Mar 19 23:30:02 <speek> nice
Mar 19 23:30:20 <democritus2> ok so what is Argo again?
Mar 19 23:30:25 <democritus2> and where do i get it?
Mar 19 23:30:28 <jel> heh.. gotta love M$, though, don't ya? =)
Mar 19 23:30:29 <speek> UML app
Mar 19 23:30:32 <jel> argouml.tigris.org
Mar 19 23:30:57 <jel> democritus2: it's a java-based CASE tool, using UML specifically.
Mar 19 23:31:21 <jel> it's actually quite helpful sometimes.. will give you advice on improving your models, etc.
Mar 19 23:32:00 <jel> It's just the responsiveness of Java that bugs me. Using an interpreted app is almost as slow as windows =)
Mar 19 23:32:17 <speek> what's interpreted?
Mar 19 23:32:24 <democritus2> nice
Mar 19 23:32:38 <jel> well, you know.. java used to be, and it still feels like it is =)
Mar 19 23:32:38 <speek> you using jdk 1.0???
Mar 19 23:32:44 <democritus2> java sucks for client apps imho
Mar 19 23:32:50 <speek> i think it's great
Mar 19 23:33:12 <jel> whatever happened to java chips, anyway?
Mar 19 23:33:13 <democritus2> maybe im doing something wrong- everytime i dload a java app- it is very slow
Mar 19 23:33:43 <speek> when i look for a program to do what i need, i like to find a java version - cause i know it will install easily, and i can fix bugs myself :-)
Mar 19 23:34:05 <speek> what kind of computer do you have?
Mar 19 23:34:05 <democritus2> hmm just the oposite here !
Mar 19 23:34:36 <speek> heh, lol
Mar 19 23:34:55 <jel> democritus2: yup, me too =)
Mar 19 23:34:57 <speek> also, i know i can run it on linux
Mar 19 23:35:26 <speek> i've never heard of java chips
Mar 19 23:35:54 <speek> what IDE do you use for java?
Mar 19 23:36:03 <jel> democritus2: read the scrollback? about the using argo, etc?
Mar 19 23:36:19 <jel> who me, speek?
Mar 19 23:36:24 <speek> whoever
Mar 19 23:36:33 <jel> I've got Netbeans installed, but never really used it.
Mar 19 23:36:42 <speek> oh, i would
Mar 19 23:36:52 <speek> damn, would;ve asked you how it was
Mar 19 23:37:11 <democritus2> yeah
Mar 19 23:37:14 <speek> i use JBuilder, which is written in java
Mar 19 23:37:41 <democritus2> i dont write java
Mar 19 23:37:56 <speek> ya, i guessed that :-)
Mar 19 23:38:01 <democritus2> hehe
Mar 19 23:38:07 <jel> well, you know.. I've fired it up, and tried hello world in it or something, but waiting for the treelists to unfold bugs me too much. It seems like a really well designed ide, though.. plugins for everything =)
Mar 19 23:38:16 <democritus2> Perl- every program out there ought to be done in Perl
Mar 19 23:38:18 <democritus2> :)
Mar 19 23:38:34 <jel> Pearl wouldn't like that one bit =)
Mar 19 23:38:46 <speek> i'm biting my tongue
Mar 19 23:38:51 <jel> =)
Mar 19 23:38:55 <democritus2> speek yeah it was a joke
Mar 19 23:38:59 <speek> :-)
Mar 19 23:39:24 <democritus2> everyone in my lug hates Perl- cept me- i get teased about it frequently
Mar 19 23:39:31 <democritus2> although they ask me how come it is so fast :)
Mar 19 23:39:48 <jel> So anyway, I wanted to get all the diagrams done to show you guys, but ...
Mar 19 23:40:00 <democritus2> i can write a perl/tk app that will run circles around a compiled java app
Mar 19 23:40:31 <speek> i'm gonna continue biting my tongue
Mar 19 23:40:51 <jel> What I've been thinking, is that things are over-complex right now. I had originally planned a really minimalist OO design, with just messages, events, and subclasses of those.
Mar 19 23:40:55 <democritus2> sorry- i'll go back to my deep dark corner now :)
Mar 19 23:41:04 <democritus2> ok
Mar 19 23:41:43 <speek> when you say "message", what do you mean, exactly?
Mar 19 23:42:00 <jel> democritus2: you can rewrite ampu in perl, just as a proof of concept, if you like =)
Mar 19 23:42:00 <speek> and events - same there
Mar 19 23:42:14 <democritus2> i might if i lose my day job
Mar 19 23:42:19 <democritus2> and my sanity
Mar 19 23:43:05 <speek> is a user-request an "event"
Mar 19 23:43:06 <speek> ?
Mar 19 23:43:16 <democritus2> actually i was thinking about that soon we should start dividing some work up- i think we can agree on some basic class/subclasses-
Mar 19 23:43:51 <speek> i think it would also be fruitful to talk about third-party packages that might be useful
Mar 19 23:43:52 <jel> Actually, speek... you're right. We shouldn't be discussing this yet =)
Mar 19 23:43:53 <democritus2> speek i believe so
Mar 19 23:44:18 <speek> why not? as long as we know we're not talking about use cases....
Mar 19 23:44:20 <jel> speek: you mean libs, etc?
Mar 19 23:44:31 <jel> true.
Mar 19 23:44:39 <speek> yeah, apache has lots of stuff that can help, we'll need a database...
Mar 19 23:44:44 <speek> a web server
Mar 19 23:44:58 <democritus2> yo
Mar 19 23:45:00 <democritus2> i got those
Mar 19 23:45:21 <speek> i imagine we'll have our favorities that we'll probably want to use....
Mar 19 23:45:21 <jel> OK, well, we'll just solve the webserver question with Apache, I assume? Any reason not to?
Mar 19 23:45:35 <speek> i vote apache
Mar 19 23:45:39 <democritus2> apache
Mar 19 23:45:58 <democritus2> best supported- extremely stable and secure
Mar 19 23:46:12 <jel> Database.. that's an issue.. do we want a nice clean hierarchical database, or do we just map our messages into flat records?
Mar 19 23:46:35 <speek> i imagine this will be very heavily database driven
Mar 19 23:46:36 <democritus2> for db i lean towards postGRE although all experience i have is with mysql and *shudder* access
Mar 19 23:46:44 <speek> i would think postGREs
Mar 19 23:46:56 <speek> demo: me too
Mar 19 23:46:57 <jel> speek: yup, and very OO, and very hierarchical.
Mar 19 23:47:05 <speek> plus interbase and FoxPro :-)
Mar 19 23:47:17 <jel> speek: plus??
Mar 19 23:47:22 <democritus2> what are the licenses with interbase and foxpro?
Mar 19 23:47:24 <speek> "in addition"
Mar 19 23:47:26 <jel> I like postgres too.
Mar 19 23:47:31 <jel> speek: funny =)
Mar 19 23:47:34 <speek> interbase is open source
Mar 19 23:47:42 <democritus2> ok wasnt sure
Mar 19 23:47:43 <speek> foxpro is MS
Mar 19 23:47:51 <speek> i think
Mar 19 23:48:04 <jel> interbase was released as firebird. Seems hideous to me, though =)
Mar 19 23:48:07 <speek> i won't mention the silly Mac db's i've used ;-)
Mar 19 23:48:19 <democritus2> jel you had mentioned the php library that interfaces with most sql's
Mar 19 23:48:20 <speek> interbase is not a good choice
Mar 19 23:48:26 <democritus2> what was its name again?
Mar 19 23:48:37 <speek> i can't imagine choosing anything but PostGREs, actually
Mar 19 23:48:41 <jel> democritus2: yup.. was just thinking of that.. ADODB.
Mar 19 23:48:59 <democritus2> that way the code is written once- for a multitude of db's
Mar 19 23:49:03 <jel> no reason to go to specific dbs at all, unless we want postgres's OO.
Mar 19 23:49:04 <democritus2> very practical
Mar 19 23:49:19 <democritus2> you dont have to use that with postgres do you?
Mar 19 23:49:20 <speek> but, accessing the db directly from PHP?
Mar 19 23:49:21 <jel> and future proof.
Mar 19 23:49:48 <jel> democritus2: no, but I'm saying that OO database features might prove useful. I don't know though, never used them.
Mar 19 23:49:56 <democritus2> gotcha
Mar 19 23:50:49 <jel> so what about the hierarchy? How would you guys handle a massive tree of data, like usenet?
Mar 19 23:50:50 <democritus2> you dont like php's db interfaces?
Mar 19 23:51:16 <speek> don't have a clue, but i wouldn't write sql code in JSP's either
Mar 19 23:51:35 <democritus2> security?
Mar 19 23:51:37 <democritus2> speed?
Mar 19 23:51:45 <speek> code maintenance
Mar 19 23:51:49 <democritus2> ah
Mar 19 23:51:57 <speek> separation of presentation logic and business logic
Mar 19 23:52:20 <jel> democritus2: me? No, I like them just fine. I'm only wondering about the efficiency of such a database-oriented app. Is it worth skipping standard approaches, and finding something more suited to our particular purpose? I think it won't matter enough to make the difference, but I'm not sure.
Mar 19 23:52:50 <speek> i would think generic would be the best way to start
Mar 19 23:52:50 <democritus2> speek i have seen that done within php context
Mar 19 23:53:13 <democritus2> basically you have sql class methods- called by php
Mar 19 23:53:23 <jel> speek: php can do classes OK, we could avoid maintenance problems. What about the reference library idea, though?
Mar 19 23:54:03 <democritus2> speek- however i had thought about that as well- basically created the db structure before the interface
Mar 19 23:54:43 <democritus2> oh speek- i implemented that hylafax server today- i got all the hitches ironed out
Mar 19 23:54:45 <speek> my natural inclination is to design the interface first
Mar 19 23:55:05 <democritus2> sorry speek- that was directed at jel
Mar 19 23:55:09 <jel> democritus2: it's working? what was up?
Mar 19 23:55:28 <democritus2> just a slight "feature" of the windows client
Mar 19 23:55:35 <democritus2> i had to "un"feature it
Mar 19 23:56:45 <jel> speek: yes, my knowledge could be out of date on this, but the way I learned was to write the user's manual, and then make the program work the way it's been documented to work. (or at least, follow that sort of strategy)
Mar 19 23:57:03 <democritus2> but as you said before - this is a very database driven app- so it seems realistic to start there
Mar 19 23:57:07 <speek> yes, that sounds reasonable, in theory
Mar 19 23:57:15 <democritus2> but all apps i have done before i have basically done the interface first
Mar 19 23:57:19 <speek> in practice, who wants to write a user's manual? ;-)
Mar 19 23:57:33 <speek> we all seem to be in agreement
Mar 19 23:57:36 <democritus2> i agree speek
Mar 19 23:58:03 <speek> bare-bones web page mock-ups are what i suggest
Mar 19 23:58:15 <jel> yes.. that's the other side. If we put the core logic into a library, then it's done, solid. We can build an interface on that, without messing up our core code.
Mar 19 23:58:58 <speek> the strategy i like best is to create "services", each of which support a particular interface
Mar 19 23:59:20 <speek> these services can then be called by business logic units, that react to specific user requests
Mar 19 23:59:21 <jel> speek: yes, that's what I was suggesting, really. Just some mockups, of how we all expect things to work. When that's firm in everyone's mind, then we can batter out the fine details.
Mar 19 23:59:56 <jel> I think use cases would be the real first step here, but the really obvious stuff could be done in the mean time.
Mar 20 00:00:16 <speek> i would think the mock ups would compliment the use cases
Mar 20 00:00:26 <democritus2> ok i can go with that
Mar 20 00:00:51 <speek> and when i say "bare-bones" i mean bare-bones
Mar 20 00:00:51 <jel> speek: so.. you like "Java"? ;) Just kidding, I'm 100% agreed on that. Interfaces are a great design tool.
Mar 20 00:01:01 <democritus2> however, i still must say it is extremely important to have an optimal db design-
Mar 20 00:01:25 <speek> but, we have to know what information we need to store, and how it'll be accessed
Mar 20 00:01:37 <democritus2> just a cautionary tale from someone who spent six months re-writing code :)
Mar 20 00:01:38 <speek> before it can be designed
Mar 20 00:01:44 <democritus2> speek i agree
Mar 20 00:01:46 <jel> well, ideally, the db code should be as abstract as the UI.
Mar 20 00:02:06 <jel> 6 months? Wow. What happened?
Mar 20 00:02:21 <speek> perl happened :-)
Mar 20 00:02:25 <democritus2> HEY!
Mar 20 00:02:26 <jel> ;)
Mar 20 00:02:29 <speek> lmao
Mar 20 00:02:30 <democritus2> lol
Mar 20 00:02:37 <democritus2> *blushes*
Mar 20 00:02:40 <democritus2> you got me
Mar 20 00:02:57 <jel> who got who? With WHAT?? =)
Mar 20 00:02:58 <speek> he had to modify some code written by Tom Christianson
Mar 20 00:03:07 <democritus2> undocumented code in any language is bad- makes sense when you write it- but man go back a year later and try to figure it out is a bitch
Mar 20 00:03:30 <speek> ya, i had to maintain a perl program that filled 300 pages
Mar 20 00:03:37 <speek> EVERY variable was global
Mar 20 00:03:45 <democritus2> oh-uh
Mar 20 00:04:03 <jel> speek: that's a method of development known as protecting your job =)
Mar 20 00:04:05 <speek> i wrote myself search programs to help me find what values variables were being given
Mar 20 00:04:15 <democritus2> well that same kinda crap can happen with db's as well-
Mar 20 00:04:31 <speek> sure - i'll bitch you out though, and i'm sure adiffere will too :-)
Mar 20 00:04:31 <democritus2> you put in a patch here- then add some stuff here later- and pretty soon you got a bloody mess
Mar 20 00:04:45 <speek> heh
Mar 20 00:04:51 <democritus2> speek- there is a perl function that does that for you
Mar 20 00:04:54 <speek> how you guys feel about unit tests?
Mar 20 00:04:58 <speek> lol
Mar 20 00:05:06 <democritus2> unit tests?
Mar 20 00:05:29 <speek> something along the lines of Extreme Programming's concept of unit testing
Mar 20 00:05:41 <speek> with java, there's the "JUnit" package
Mar 20 00:05:53 <speek> there're similar ones for C, maybe even Perl too
Mar 20 00:06:33 <jel> I think the data interface should be really high-level. That way, the underlying code can become as efficient as the overall program structure allows, if that is ever possible.
Mar 20 00:06:58 <speek> i agree with that
Mar 20 00:06:58 <jel> speek: unit testing is an XP thing?
Mar 20 00:07:13 <speek> not in the sense of ownership
Mar 20 00:07:29 <speek> but, yes, in the sense of "you ain't doing XP unless your unit testing"
Mar 20 00:07:38 <jel> speek: ah, ok.
Mar 20 00:07:57 <jel> yup, I like unit testing. Never done it, but always thought I probably should have =)
Mar 20 00:08:15 <speek> it's hard to keep up the discipline of it, but it really pays off
Mar 20 00:08:21 <jel> Actually, I think I recall doing it once =)
Mar 20 00:08:36 <jel> That was conscientious of me, eh? ;)
Mar 20 00:08:50 <speek> you'd make a welcome improvement to my team
Mar 20 00:09:15 <democritus2> had to fire up xawtv- dextors lab is on
Mar 20 00:09:20 <jel> You're in the ATEAM??
Mar 20 00:09:33 <speek> haha
Mar 20 00:09:41 <speek> developers here at work
Mar 20 00:09:58 <jel> sorry. Reliving a joke that was on TV last week =)
Mar 20 00:10:31 <democritus2> shit - all the mirrors for mandrake 8.2 are still jammed
Mar 20 00:10:40 <speek> i apologize I haven't started doing the mock ups already, but i'm still in the process of buying my house
Mar 20 00:10:52 <speek> i love mandrake
Mar 20 00:11:05 <speek> although, i'm contemplating trying suse next time...
Mar 20 00:11:09 <jel> democritus2: you've been trying since yesterday?
Mar 20 00:11:32 <democritus2> off and on
Mar 20 00:11:50 * jel hides behind his debian CD =)
Mar 20 00:12:00 <speek> i'm not that bravfe
Mar 20 00:12:06 <speek> i like things easy
Mar 20 00:12:28 <speek> and, i have no interest in hardware/nitty-gritty problems
Mar 20 00:12:40 <jel> ah, well.. debian is one of those things thats a little tougher in the beginning to save you lots of hassle later =)
Mar 20 00:12:53 <speek> how does it save you hassle?
Mar 20 00:13:25 <speek> i could be very interested, cause i hate hassle even more :-)
Mar 20 00:14:11 <jel> everything's real easy on it. Most software just works on install. It's only the initial package selection that looks confusing, but that's only because it's gives you the choice of about 8000 programs =)
Mar 20 00:14:55 <speek> but, most apps don't come as debian potato packages (is that what they're called?), but rather as rpm's
Mar 20 00:15:00 <speek> how do you deal with that?
Mar 20 00:15:05 <jel> Only major problem with debian is that it isn't keeping up to well right now. You have to use the unstable version to get modern software.
Mar 20 00:15:08 <democritus2> alien
Mar 20 00:15:25 <speek> alien?
Mar 20 00:15:27 <jel> nope, not alien.. that's why everyone uses unstable.
Mar 20 00:15:51 <democritus2> tool to let you use rpms on debian
Mar 20 00:16:01 <speek> oh
Mar 20 00:16:12 <jel> run a command every night, and you automatically get all the latest versions, dependancies, and all =)
Mar 20 00:16:25 <speek> ooooh, THAT sounds way cool
Mar 20 00:16:56 <jel> it is. I keep trying mandrake, etc.. but I miss that one feature way too much to put up with anything else for long =)
Mar 20 00:17:01 <speek> cause, the two things I have the most trouble with are updating software, and adding shortcuts to the damn KDE start-button-menu
Mar 20 00:17:31 <jel> But I'm not trying to convert anyone.. if you've survived on Redhat or whatever for this long, then may as well stick with it.. they all have pros and cons.
Mar 20 00:17:39 <democritus2> so how do you suggest we start the mockup procedure?
Mar 20 00:18:13 <speek> i'm imagining html with just forms and text on them, basically outlining the input and output, but none of the formatting
Mar 20 00:18:21 <jel> speek: oh, yes.. forgot. Debian has an update-menus command, which all x packages run on installation. Adds menu entries to gnome, kde, and all of the window managers =)
Mar 20 00:18:29 <speek> we could use Apache's Anakia tool.......
Mar 20 00:18:36 <jel> Anakia?
Mar 20 00:18:50 <speek> it's like XSL, but not silly like XSL is silly....
Mar 20 00:18:59 <jel> Skywalker's sister?
Mar 20 00:19:05 <speek> you can write real simple XML, and then convert it to HTML, or whatever
Mar 20 00:19:20 <speek> lmao
Mar 20 00:19:34 <speek> we write our documentation with it
Mar 20 00:19:59 <jel> Anakin's sister writes software docs? ;)
Mar 20 00:20:07 <speek> but anyway, some real simple XML could describe a page mock-up, and then you can write whatever Anakia logic to dress it up however you like in HTML
Mar 20 00:20:47 <jel> Sounds cool enough. This is what.. java?
Mar 20 00:21:11 <speek> ya, java. it's not buying much, but you could also use it to generate the AMPU website
Mar 20 00:21:46 <speek> Which would let you write just the content in the XML, and the HTML formatting in a "stylesheet"
Mar 20 00:22:06 <speek> it's just like XSL, but it's a template language that looks more like perl
Mar 20 00:22:09 <jel> I was talking to the Savannah folks.. they don't have any PHP or DB support on the site, since they don't have a volunteer to admin it every time something goes wrong.
Mar 20 00:22:39 <jel> Then, doesn't the obvious question turn to XML databases, etc?
Mar 20 00:22:57 <democritus2> ah- was wondering about the formatting
Mar 20 00:22:57 <speek> you've takena left turn on me?
Mar 20 00:23:03 <democritus2> reading the website now
Mar 20 00:23:28 <speek> demo - you reading about Velocity/Anakia?
Mar 20 00:23:31 <democritus2> yeah
Mar 20 00:24:10 <jel> Velocity is.. let me guess.. Anakia's friend, from school? ;)
Mar 20 00:24:19 <speek> Velocity is the main project name
Mar 20 00:24:27 <jel> =)
Mar 20 00:24:38 <speek> Anakia is a sub-project, specifically designed for documentation needs
Mar 20 00:25:16 <speek> It's very simple to use, particularly if you use Ant as you build tool :-)
Mar 20 00:25:26 <speek> but see, here's why I though we should talk about third-party
Mar 20 00:25:46 <speek> because, if you let me, i will lead you down a java path, from which there might be no return
Mar 20 00:25:57 <democritus2> hehe
Mar 20 00:26:00 <speek> ....and you may not like that
Mar 20 00:26:09 <jel> =)
Mar 20 00:26:43 <speek> i haven't even mentioned struts and turbine and avalon yet....
Mar 20 00:26:52 <jel> what about the core code, guys... reference library?
Mar 20 00:27:01 <speek> what about it?
Mar 20 00:27:34 <jel> Should we implement the core functionality in a library, and build the web app, servers, etc on top of that?
Mar 20 00:28:09 <speek> i would make each service an independent "library"
Mar 20 00:28:41 <democritus2> i agree
Mar 20 00:28:46 <jel> which services?
Mar 20 00:28:59 <speek> well, that should come out of design, after we know the use cases
Mar 20 00:29:05 <democritus2> for instance you could implement a security library
Mar 20 00:29:12 <speek> for instance, we'll probably have an authentication service
Mar 20 00:29:14 <democritus2> for logon procedures, etc
Mar 20 00:29:24 <speek> demo-speek mind-link
Mar 20 00:29:37 <democritus2> damn
Mar 20 00:29:45 <democritus2> brb
Mar 20 00:29:45 <speek> you owe me a beer
Mar 20 00:30:10 <speek> and, there might be a user-directory service
Mar 20 00:30:24 <jel> yes, but they'll all merge into one high-level API, which just has stuff like authenticateCitizen(), right? In fact, I'd hoped to just do that, and use third-party libs for the low-level stuff.
Mar 20 00:30:57 <speek> it would all get packaged together, so in that sense it would be one API
Mar 20 00:31:17 <speek> but, each service is represented by an interface that the service implements
Mar 20 00:31:36 <speek> each service would be independent of other services implementation details
Mar 20 00:32:05 <jel> ah, OK.. sorry. Yes, no reason we can't separate some of the functionality, even if it's all high-level stuff. Was being stoopid =)
Mar 20 00:32:07 <democritus2> great
Mar 20 00:32:10 <speek> and, a "service" implies it needs to be initialized, and also needs support from external sources - like a db
Mar 20 00:32:24 <democritus2> i just got the ok- on plans for end of next month
Mar 20 00:32:37 <jel> democritus2: plans?
Mar 20 00:32:42 <democritus2> i will be co-sharing a full t-1
Mar 20 00:32:55 <jel> nice =)
Mar 20 00:32:58 <jel> what fur?
Mar 20 00:33:06 <speek> demo can run our demo :-)
Mar 20 00:33:15 <democritus2> have access to dual pentium III 1ghz, 2mb ram- 72mb scsci machine
Mar 20 00:33:17 <democritus2> yes
Mar 20 00:33:25 <jel> =) Shouldn't have volunteered, demo =)
Mar 20 00:33:26 <democritus2> its for business/fun
Mar 20 00:33:44 <democritus2> that ought to take care of any problems with savannah?
Mar 20 00:33:48 <speek> 2mb ram, huhj?
Mar 20 00:33:55 <democritus2> gig
Mar 20 00:33:56 <democritus2> sorry
Mar 20 00:33:57 <speek> my amiga had more than that
Mar 20 00:33:59 <speek> heh
Mar 20 00:34:04 <jel> can you handle ./ing bills?
Mar 20 00:34:13 <jel> or, /.ing, even =)
Mar 20 00:34:18 <democritus2> i wont be paying a dime
Mar 20 00:34:23 <speek> lol
Mar 20 00:34:28 <jel> I'll take that as a YES =)
Mar 20 00:34:38 <democritus2> doing some work for it
Mar 20 00:34:57 <democritus2> so i guess i am paying opportunity costs- if i payed attention in economics class
Mar 20 00:34:59 <jel> democritus2: this is long-term ?
Mar 20 00:35:04 <democritus2> yeah
Mar 20 00:35:10 <jel> sounds great =)
Mar 20 00:35:32 <democritus2> at least a year or more- same guy wants to hire me full time- he just cant afford me yet- he is hoping his business picks up so he can snag me as his it guy
Mar 20 00:36:53 <speek> about the CVS structure on savannah...
Mar 20 00:36:56 <jel> what's he doing with a half unused T1 ?
Mar 20 00:37:02 <jel> speek: yup?
Mar 20 00:37:07 <democritus2> email-web
Mar 20 00:37:22 <speek> seems like a lot of top-level directories...
Mar 20 00:38:17 <speek> resources,contact,devel,doc,docs,downloads,images,links,news
Mar 20 00:38:30 <speek> what are the differences?
Mar 20 00:38:33 <jel> speek: on the website? yea, you can't have one site directory, doesn't map that way. As for many directories in the top level of the site, I just do it that way, one dir per main site section.
Mar 20 00:39:09 <jel> doc/docs.. just a typo. Check out with -P should leave the old one out.
Mar 20 00:39:38 <speek> ok, but i don't understand - why can't all of it be kept in one top-level CVS directory called "website"?
Mar 20 00:39:53 <jel> _resources is present in most dirs.. equivalent to "src"
Mar 20 00:40:12 <jel> images self-explan. rest, just sections
Mar 20 00:41:05 <jel> You'd think, after ~50 years of computing, that we'd have agreed on FS layout, eh?
Mar 20 00:41:27 <jel> sheesh. "...after about 50 years of computing, that..."
Mar 20 00:41:50 <jel> what does tilde do on IRC? Is it an xchat thing?
Mar 20 00:41:50 <speek> i'm not complaining about the organization of the website, i'm wondering why it's not all held in one directory in CVS
Mar 20 00:42:46 <jel> speek: it is, the module is called non-gnu/ampu (that's the directory), but since it's the code for our site, it looks like a site structure
Mar 20 00:43:08 <jel> speek: CVS *is* the website.. no difference on savannah
Mar 20 00:43:14 <speek> when we write actual code, and make/build files, where will they go?
Mar 20 00:43:35 <jel> there are two different cvs repositories, one for the code, one for the site.
Mar 20 00:43:44 <speek> ah - gotcha
Mar 20 00:43:59 <jel> each with separate permissions, too.
Mar 20 00:44:08 <speek> cool
Mar 20 00:44:15 <speek> where's the other one?
Mar 20 00:44:22 <jel> yea, I know.. it's a little complex =)
Mar 20 00:44:24 <jel> lemme check.
Mar 20 00:45:08 <jel> jeez.. just answered you in a shell window. Didn't work as expected =)
Mar 20 00:45:18 <speek> i'm EVERWHERE!
Mar 20 00:45:21 <jel> /cvsroot/ampu =)
Mar 20 00:45:23 <jel> =)
Mar 20 00:45:40 <jel> lol.
Mar 20 00:45:51 <speek> and this one is /non-gnu/ampu?
Mar 20 00:46:21 <jel> this one is /webcvs/non-gnu/ampu
Mar 20 00:46:50 <speek> hm, the CVS-on-the-web says nothing about "webcvs"
Mar 20 00:47:09 <speek> oh, i see - nevermind
Mar 20 00:47:37 <jel> yep, sorry, could have been more exact there. repository vs. sub-directory/module thing.
Mar 20 00:47:38 <speek> it's labelled as "HTML" vs "Sources" on the web page
Mar 20 00:47:45 <jel> yup.
Mar 20 00:48:07 <jel> roll on arch, eh?
Mar 20 00:48:08 <speek> i should get going
Mar 20 00:48:24 <speek> eh?
Mar 20 00:48:29 <speek> arch?
Mar 20 00:48:44 <-- speek has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
Mar 20 00:48:51 <jel> arch. craply named successor to CVS.. much tidier
Mar 20 00:49:16 <jel> still here democritus2?
Mar 20 00:49:56 <jel> Steve?
Mar 20 00:49:58 <democritus2> yeah
Mar 20 00:50:06 <jel> =) just checking.
Mar 20 00:50:09 <democritus2> i should just write a quick wget script
Mar 20 00:50:16 <democritus2> trying to get the damn isos
Mar 20 00:50:25 <jel> no mirrors?
Mar 20 00:50:36 --> speek (~speek@cf1.ext.eastgw.xerox.com) has joined #ampu
Mar 20 00:50:45 <jel> debian has a cool distributed iso downloader now, too =)
Mar 20 00:50:50 <speek> sorry, disconnected accidentally
Mar 20 00:50:54 <democritus2> mirrors are jammed as well
Mar 20 00:50:57 <jel> =) np.
Mar 20 00:51:16 <speek> didn't want to be rude and leave without saying goodbye :-)
Mar 20 00:51:24 <democritus2> that and the long day is starting to wear on me
Mar 20 00:51:26 <jel> arch is a successor to CVS, well.. something designed as that, at least. Seems much better, but not quite there yet.
Mar 20 00:51:45 <speek> wow, learn something new everyday
Mar 20 00:51:55 <speek> how is it better?
Mar 20 00:51:58 <jel> np, speek-- don't worry.. we'll catch you later.
Mar 20 00:52:34 <speek> ok - next week then, unless i see ya ealier...
Mar 20 00:52:38 <jel> Better control of project-wide updates, manages branches more easily, about 48k in size, i think.. some other things =)
Mar 20 00:52:38 <democritus2> later speek
Mar 20 00:52:53 <jel> bye =)
Mar 20 00:52:54 <speek> i'll have to look it up, tx
Mar 20 00:52:58 <speek> bye
Mar 20 00:52:59 <democritus2> anyway i think some things were done
Mar 20 00:53:01 <jel> I'll read up on Anakia.
Mar 20 00:53:02 <-- speek (~speek@cf1.ext.eastgw.xerox.com) has left #ampu
Mar 20 00:53:15 <democritus2> some talk on where to go, db, ui
Mar 20 00:54:23 <jel> jeez.. I misread your comment about being tired -- thought speek said it, and basically told him to take off, without reason! =(
Mar 20 00:54:56 <jel> yes, we covered a few things tonight. Did we decide who's doing the mockups?
Mar 20 00:56:45 <democritus2> no
Mar 20 00:56:55 <democritus2> yeah i thought so too
Mar 20 00:56:59 <democritus2> that was kinda odd
Mar 20 00:57:34 <jel> Yea.. I'll have to apologise for that. It's tough keeping track of everything on IRC, though =)
Mar 20 00:57:50 <democritus2> you ought to try being in a really busy room
Mar 20 00:58:08 <democritus2> garage is up and functional
Mar 20 00:58:26 <democritus2> still have the monitors to mount- but i got the 7 foot server rack up- and filled already :)
Mar 20 00:58:42 <democritus2> its wired
Mar 20 00:58:48 <jel> Anyways.. I think speek was suggesting he'd to a little, and I'll throw something together to. We may as well just mockup any ideas we have at this stage, and merge those ideas later.
Mar 20 00:59:01 <democritus2> good idea-
Mar 20 00:59:12 <democritus2> i am going to do some tomorrow-
Mar 20 00:59:19 <jel> cool. How much electricity does your garage drain now? ;)
Mar 20 01:00:02 <democritus2> dont know
Mar 20 01:00:14 <democritus2> i dug a line to the neighbors box
Mar 20 01:00:18 <democritus2> ONLY kidding
Mar 20 01:00:21 <jel> Sounds like my kind idea of fun, anyway =)
Mar 20 01:00:29 <jel> hehheh..
Mar 20 01:00:49 <democritus2> yeah- I have 8 machines up right now- 48 ports of 100mb- 8 ports of gigabit
Mar 20 01:00:56 <democritus2> gotta go wife and kid came home
Mar 20 01:00:58 <jel> I guess it'll either be that, or a wind turbine some day =)
Mar 20 01:01:06 <jel> np. me too. Later =)
Mar 20 01:01:37 <jel> you should run some 3d renders on those =)

**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Mar 20 01:01:57 2002